Borusci (in english & polish)
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| ERYKAS | my interest in prussian nativity came as more i bewildered into a private historical quest about some Borowski (and Barauskas) families. some of them bearing the prus coat of arms and some documented as anciently connected and even originating in prussian/lithuanian/kashubian territories. i am not into genealogy here, but more into help from some of you who have interest in the more archaic and ancient ways of the region, so it is not merely about nationality as it is into finding out some annoying questions that have arisen as deeper as i looked. i would add that i am a interested in ancient baltic and slavic pre christian ways. and found some interesting connections in a broader perspective. BORUSCI taken from vikipedia
now. some of the other common meanings of the word Bor stand for - wood/forest/Wald but also for - warrior the usage of the word P seemd to happen also with the rugen island common deity Purevit which in very rare occasions is mentioned as Borovit. (Borovit may stand for something as - lord of the forest) a nice scandinavian anecdote would be that odin`s father was called Frithuwald (Bor) - and that the meaning of frithu - lord, wald - forest would stand again for something with the same meaning. sadly, the christianisation of the baltic and proto slavic tribes which sometimes was brutal - especialy in the pomeranian and lusatian regions - as i suppose it wasnt popular in the begining also with the prussians and the lithuanians. to conclude this, i am not some english speaking freak of baltic history, but somebody who found his own family recorded in samogitia, which indeed should be counted as in the heart of the ancient prussian area. the Borowski tribe counts more than 26000 people in poland bears about 13 different coat of arms, and some branches have records down to the 13th century. many of them were already there signing with this name. and were registered mainly into the polish schlachta as chivalry. well that`s nice and fine to a polish genealogy hobyist, but somewhere i got stuck. it seems that this name is as old as recorded polish history itself! and when recorded in the 13th and 14th centuries, this people were already strongly in the polish documentation. but the problem with some polish researches i read is perhaps the fear to go deeper into proto slavic history. maybe its roots is with the complex of catholicism to confront with the older ways. and i suppose that most members of this polish tribe, prefer to see themselves as polish and not as some obscure pagan forest dwellers. there are three historical regions of origin for this name. one is in the kashebian region of gdynia gdansk and sopot. the second in todays belarusian and ukrainian regions which were under the polish-lithuanian crown the third in the samogitia/zmudz/zeimiatia region. for sometime i have the notion, but i cannot track any sound evidence that i am dealing with a whole tribe that might be originating further in the past, and may equal even to the ancient lechite and polani tribes. you might understand that i jumped on this Borusci conection, as it quitely fits and points to this connection in the linguical and also geographical parameters. i would be grateful if anybody here would spill some light on these connection and on ancient history of prussian tribes. |
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| ERYKAS | 
Hofmann, Johann Jacob (1635-1706): Lexicon Universale http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/hofmann/hof1/s0564a.html |
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| ERYKAS | Sarmatiae Europaeae populi. Ptol. Ob necem Adelberti a Bolessao I. ad tributum addacti, A. C. 1018. Quos olim Deos coluerint, exponit Erasmus Stella pene initio de Antiqq. Boruss. l. 1. Nulla eis sacra aliquandiu fuêre: tandem in eam deducti insaniam, ut serpentes ferasque et arbores, religiose colerent. Ubi quod de serpentibus habet, simile quid de Samogithis narrar, Sigismund. Liber Baro Herberstenius Comm. Rer. Moscov. de Lithuanis, Idem ibid. et Alex. Guagiunus Sarmat. Europ. de Calecutensibus, Iul. Caes. Scaliger Histor. Anim. l. 2. c. 18. sect. 123. et iam de Aegyptiis veteribus, Phylarchus Histor. l. 12. et ex ea Aelian. de Aumal. l. 17. c. 5. Vide Voss. de orig. et progr. Idolol. l. 4. c. 63. Horum regio Prussia in regno Polonico, contenta inter ostia Vistulae, et Memelli ad Caeciam 37. leuc. patens inter dicta ostia; Prutema etiam Latine dicitur.Prcussen et Prussen vulgo, in Regiam et Ducalem divisa, vide infra. Ovid. Trist. l. 4.El. 8. v. 41. Vita procul patriâ peragenda sub axe Borusco est. Ita Ferrarius. Tu vero lege, sub axe Borêo. alias divisa in 12 partes, dum Equitibus Tentonicis paruit: Nunc in duas Regiam nempe, quae Poloniae Regi subest, et Ducalem, quae Electori Brandeburgico. Provincia est admodum fertilis et rigua, inter mare Balticum ad Boream, Poloniam inferiorem Mazoviamque ad Meridiem, Lithuaniam ad Ortum, et Pomeraniam ad Occidentem. Vide Crucigeri et Prussia. Addo hîc, quod in latitudinem 50. in longitudinem vero 60. milliar. extenditur: ab Occasu Pomeraniâ, ab Austro Masoviâ, Lithuaniâ cum Samogitia ab Ortu, mari Balthicô a Septentrione terminata. Claret supra in odum illustrium urbium, oppidoium arciumque frequentiâ, opibus incolarum ac terrae ubertate, pecoris insuper omnigeni inaestimabili copia, ut et piscationibus, venationibus, ac silvis fructuosissimis, sed metallolorum minus ferax est. Merces, quas e Polonia, Russia et Lithuania accipit maximô suô commodô, traus mare mittit, et vicissim in Poloniam importat, quidquid Europa universa ac India gignit, omnia fere, a transmarinis mercatoribus, accipiens. Succinum speciale eius donum est, quod nullum mare, praeter Balthicum ferre dicitur. Tenuerunt hanc regionem diu, olim Equites Teutonici: quô nomine cum lites alere cum Poloniae Regibus cogerentur, tandem cladibus aliquot fracti Casimiro Sigilmundi 1. parenti, fidem dedêre. Sed cum Albertus Brandeburg. Sigismundi ex sorore nepos ac Ordinis Magister Antecessorum iureiurandô Aare nollet, novo bello implicitus, a Caesare auxilia frustra exspectavit: Hinc sibi pace cum Avunculo contractâ consulendi occasionem sumpsit, quae hâc lege inita est, ut ex Ordinis Magistro, a Poloniae Rege, cuius clientelae se submiserat, Botussiae Dux crearetur, partemque illam, quae Ducalis hinc dicta, in feudum ab co acciperet: Quô iure Elector hodiernus Brandeburgicus transactione Welaviensi absolutus est, supremô in Borussiam Ducalem iure obtentô, A. C. 1657. Regia tribus Satrapiis distincta est, Culmensi, cuius caput Culma et in qua Thorunium: Mariaeburgensi, cuius caput urbs est cognominis, et in qua Elbinga: ac Varmiensi, in qua Heilsberga et Brunsberga. Vide Auctorem Anonymum Hist. Orbis Terr. Geogr. ac Civ. Urbes illius clariores sunt: In Prussia Regiu. Gedanum, Dantzik. Mariaeburgum, Marienburg. Elbinga, Elbing. Torunia, Thorn. Conitza, Komtz. In Prussia Ducali. Regiomons, Konigsberg. Memelia, Memel. Braunsberga, Braunsberg. Brandeburgum, Brandeburg. |
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| Glabbis | interesting, but there are too many different ideas in your postings. it is hard to catch the main message. I don't know what you want to find in "slavic" tribes more? Ancient Baltic area was so wide. How "slavs" dirived from balts and mixing with Asians and others formed new nations, it is not so hard to guess. |
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| ERYKAS | Glabbis
"i would be grateful if anybody here would spill some light on these connection and on ancient history of prussian tribes"
i wish to thank you for your response. and now i would try to sharpen the subject and my questions, as i am not a profesional historian, my interest in the baltic ethnicity is ofcourse from personal interest, as i suppose, each and every other member here would have. first of all, is there today something called clear blooded prussian? is there any idea what the ancient prussian represents to the modern descendants of the old prussian regions. frankly speaking, i never would arrive to this if not studying my own family`s roots and connections. as with the case in my study i had to cope with a family which is almost the size of quite a big tribe. since childhood i was drawn to places like gdansk, malbork, frombork, elblang, torun and spent many vacations in mazuria. i didnt know why is it that i feel more at home there than lets say in the southern and western regions. was it just my subjective impression of the regions climate and topography and architecture? i dont know. why am i interested in archaic baltic and slavic cults? i also dont know. but deep inside, maybe it is purely some remark of some genetic memory that reminds me, and craves to these regions, to the deep dark forests and lakes, the marsh land, the vision of trees and long sunsets. does it say something? i dont know, as a warsaw born i shouldnt have this romantic craving. but how can most of the present generations which never been or ever knew about the forgotten culture and dissapearing ancient culture have these cravings also? what ancient prussian culture has with modern prussia i really cant understand. all i see is what i always knew deep inside, that same old war in the name of religion, which brought the brethern of the sword to the region by the piast princes. ended historicaly with the germanisation of the area. do i have any symphaty to german prussia? the answer is totaly no! that is strange, but since childhood when ever asked what nationality i am, i could never answer the right answer. when ever asked i answered we are somewhere from the north of poland from the prussian regions. now, as a pole, it is clear that the notion of the meaning of prussia was negative. did the common pole knew something about the baltic faith? or that the real prussian has nothing incommon with the german? at the first time i read ancient prussian writings i was schocked to understand many words and found the gramatics to be maybe obscured but somehow so familiar and natural. and when somebody tells me stories about german prussianism i stand up and tell him: hey look at me, i am the closest living thing to a prussian you would ever see in your life! if something sounds like a duck, moves like a duck and looks like a duck - it probably is a duck. when ever i hear or read germanic superiority writings, or pseudo nazi propaganda like the white alliance i just laugh. what do they know about prussian blue? just because some polish tactical mistake in the 12th century... the great advantage (and also disadvantage) of the baltic people was that they were isolated for quite a long time from the larger group of the proto-slavic tribes. and could keep their languages in their ancient form, thus, not developing and interacting with the rest of the migrating tribes. thats the reason the baltic group of languages is so distinct but yet has nothing with germanic and is closest to the slavic (with some exceptions). the other marker is the genetic one, as isolated tribes, these isolated groups would mix less with the southern slavic people, and keep a distinct genetic pool. nobody mistakes an estonian with a lithuanian or latvian, not by appearance and not by language. but would any one recognise a curonian or a sadovian or a prussian amongst lithuanians, latvians and pomeranians? a thousand years ago these people spoke quite similar languages those who were more interactive like the kashubians and sorbians developed into more slavic dialects, but not germanic! and above all, the pagan deity pantheon, the runic system, was almost the same. perkunas was the same god in prussia as in lithuania, and as in pomerania as well as in rugen island. but not germanic or nordic! some like to call it as an overall sauromatian culture which connects linguisticaly and geneticaly the slavic and the baltic but devides it with geographical isolation and interaction with other migrating tribes. a thing almost didnt occur in the lith-prus baltic area. i dont find nothing mystical nor special in that, so it doesnt offend me, as i suppose that aproximately 2000 years ago we all spoke the same language and lived in the same lifestyle and belived in the same gods, and ghosts, and worshipped the same trees. (the germanic and hunic and frankish, and romans did not!) like thousand years ago the same today, europe still prefers to paint ancient eastern europe as full of invincable germanic tribes. the allmighty germanisation of europe`s history does not leave a place for strong baltic and proto-slavic tribes. but the fact is different. the germanic tribes had to move towards rome not because they were so fierce and invincable, but that they were moved by a stronger migration from the east and the other migration of the black sea tribes did not affect the balts nor the slavs but it did move all the others to the west. now that we are relatively free of the german superiority dogmatism we should sit and wait until archeology and more documentation dug in kurgans will prove it. the other boundary is the linguistic, as with all indo-aryan languages it is clear to find that those who kept the more similarities to sanskrit would be those closer to this core. and again guess who has most similarities and symbolics. (even the ancient god pantheon has similarities with the pantheon of the sanskrit rig-veda) for me ancient prussian sounds much like a mixture or something in between western slavic and sanskrit (i studied sanskrit once). if you have all these markers put together along with symbolism, runes, swastikas, tamga`s, and even the stylised trizub`s or tridents. and add the fact that in the last thousand years, lithuanians mixed into poles and belorussians, prussians mixed even more into all these groups and among themselves again. (but lesser into the germanic. and the evidence would be in finding strangely non-germanic family names in german speaking lands). this regions history was much to complicated and full with wars and ethnic clashes, divisions, and merging of tribes into larger states. how can we tell today who is a pole or kashubian or prussian or lithuanian? (at least in poland) does the fact that ones parents had a house in some occupied polish or hungarian or russian or germano-prussian territory, decides on his present nationality or tribal ancestry? remember that ancient prussia was fallen to the sword of the teutonic order. which means it never was as strong and fierce it just was problematic for the weakening dukes of masovia. as like the kashubians were problematic with their pagan ways to the dukes of gniezno. what i basicaly say, that the present location of birth is really not important to the tribal and ancestrial issue. if somebodys family lived under the german-prussia for two hundred years doesnt make him ancient prussian more than the ancient prussian who dissolved into lithuania or masovia or poland. what i say is, if the language itself was already forbidden at the times of the teutonic order. is that we should look into what and who is prussian not only by the claims of border shifting or some later language aquiring by later non-tribal families, shifting and moving with their properties according to border disputes and economical investment. what i did was trying to relocate and find everything which relates to the meaning of naming of places and my family name thats how i bumped on many surprising connections to history of the region and to the conclusion that until we would not test and analise each and every person of this region, we should stick into tracking it by checking ancient meanings of names, documented and mythical history. |
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| Glabbis | But anyway your considerations are so long and it is not so easy to say something to add or to correct. Yes, there are officially "clear blooded" Prussians in Germany who don't want to reconstruct living Baltic aspects of Prussian culture because all of them are too old while their children are 100 percent Germans in their minds. Soon all these old men will pass away. So what will do with their useless children, i don't know. Yes, there are lots of people who have interest in old Baltic names but the paradox is that majority of them - don't understand that now we need to increase our activity. You know, the most Holy words of modern people everywhere are: "i have no time now". Now we can restore our Baltic Prussian nation without any problems because now we have enough of knowlenge and anything else. What we really don't have is: people who would say: "ok, i will put aside all my present day jobs and i will do only Prussian things now". People don't know how to live without money! You see, we can endlessly try to research all these old families, names and so on, but what's the point to know who is genetically of Prussian/Baltic origin and who is not? Prusai disapeared as a speaking nation in 18th century because they wanted to live better. Many of them changed their names and went to towns to earn money. This is a real cause of the Death of our Prussian nation. Yes, now we usually talk about Great Plague, Famine, German Genocide and so on. Yes, all of these really took place but i doubt that these were the main reasons. The same situation we still have now. People pray for EU and hope that this criminal structure can help. People pray for their jobs and this is the main reason why we have no real results of riviving. People say the following prayers: "we should work and live quietly, EU will help us, our hobby is Prusai and we will do it during our spare time", and so on... All would be possible if people could look at things very radically. Even those who can do not so little for Prussians, try to look at official scientific points of view. Science is first of all serves to disorientate people because science serves for political state interests. Researching Prussian issues, researchers will write everything but not about real Prussian things. They will invent some stupid concepts of Baltic-Slavic unity, Scandinavian, German theories of Prussian origin and so on. Anything but not Baltic Prussian. Scientists know that majority of clever people will lose their interest on the way to the Baltic Prussian Restoring. They will say: we will pay for your work if you write that Polish is a great Slavic nation. I am sure this is the main reason why we have still no their own Independent Baltic Prussian State with our own Culture and Language. People want to have a job and live quietly. |
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| Nērtiks | It's nice to see new prussian friend among us! You write such an amounts of text, that it's realy hard to answer, but I'll try. since childhood i was drawn to places like gdansk, malbork, frombork, elblang, torun and spent many vacations in mazuria. i didnt know why is it that i feel more at home there than lets say in the southern and western regions. was it just my subjective impression of the regions climate and topography and architecture? i dont know.
Yes! It's genetic memory. Stupid people want to lose their Tradition, because they think, that it only tight them and they will be free, if they will throw it away. And they become be very lost in reality, because in fact they lose a ground under their feet, a root of their world view, which is a product of evolution and cannot be changed so easy. If You start to study the Baltic tradition, You will be suprised feeling, that You somehow know it already. I draw in my school copybooks grass snakes, ravens and hawks. Why these animals? Isn't it strange, that they are important in Baltic culture? No, it's very natural. Because studying the Tradition whe just study the deepest layers of our souls. We have in Poland Pruthenia society. And it's example of problem, about what Glabbis wrote. They are scientist, not patriots. They want to investigate something, what they think is dead, they are not interested in living culture. When I wanted to create prussian version of Pruthenia site, with my friend who manage it, the society answer was strong NO! Your knowledge is very large, we will be very glad to work with You for Prussia. My GG number is 5307054. I also want to invite You to prussian forum in polish: http://rbi.webd.pl/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=15 |
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| Glabbis | - O, how strange, you didn't tell about it! Did you try to talk with these men about: what is so terrible in living prūsai?! I believe they want to get money from EU and afraid that this EU funds would say: "what a shit you are doing there, we will never give You any cent as we need beautiful corpses of Ancient Old Prehistorical Wild Animals - prūsai! Amen". Isn't it? Well, when here all russian local "historians" pray for some german money, they always say: "o, these old ancient Prussians!", "dead language, dead culture", "great german culture"... and so on. So i was very very surprised by Erykas's postings as well and i hope that he will be the one of us who want to be a part of our Real & Living & Modern Prussian Culture and not a beautiful perfect european Dead. I also had the same feelings in my childhood, at school. |
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| ERYKAS | basically answering i would hope i wont dissapoint you with my answer and also with some of my views about sense of nationality. well, to explain what i mean by that would force me to admit that as many others in these regions, my family moved and shifted from various areas. when i left poland i was barely 7 yrs old. that was still with comunists in power. from my fathers side, grandmothers family held lands in the regions of Brest-litovsk and her family may be traced back to pre union lithuania. but what was her nationality? i believe strictly polish as i remember. from my mother`s side it is difficult and also quite weird, her father was from austro-hungarian noble family. which spoke german. all of his family was murdered during the 2 world war. his father and grandfathers served in the austrian army in ww1 later the region became poland again (i traced them back in time to germany). but times also changed then, i suppose these people like others who survived the last 200 years in the region should have major nationality conflicts. for me poland always stood as a country in which many nationalities could quitely co-exist and flourish and yet not loose their ethnicity. i myself at the present live in a middle eastern state... which might be a very interesting case for you to study about revival of a nation. do i feel a member of the national flesh there? the answer is not. the great problem is that above all, it might be that our ancient tribal ancestry bounds us to these tribal genetic memories. some of us have the luck of choosing their nationality, some other prefer to stick with the post-modern merging of ethnicity to some fragile new american style new culture. frankly i really dislike it. morals and the old ways, no matter which, should stay and at least kept alive as possible alternative. it doesnt mean that tomorrow i will choose lets say to become austrian and start rebuilding lets say austrian patriotism. for me this search is not merely a hobby it is rather more a kind of almost religious quest (and i mean, ancestral worship. etc) but i am not ready yet to say that tomorrow i would adopt me a new or past nationality and would stick to that. and i am not into an argue about what these or others scientists say. basically i agree with the most of your arguments. (oh and believe me also, i have my germanic and jewish and polish living roots and if i could choose either one of the three i would reject the first two and yet i would never feel polish). but i would better feel as some part from the baltic-slavic group of people. so i am sorry if you shall find me not becoming something more specific. ofcourse as polish the historical conotation of the name prussia was quite negative to me. (i dont need to talk about history i guess) atleast in my polish collective sum of conotations. prussia stood for germanism, for the teutonic order, for the endless clashes and wars between opportunistic invaders to that area. the term "prussacy" "prusini" was applayed to some non existing tribe of the past. all the rest was german and about germanisation of these areas. (that is ofcourse the lack of true historical research and facts but also the course of the last millenia history) so it is clear i would never stand for reviving of any thing connected to the teutonic prussia. i am sorry. and i would not like to find myself standing on one side with german back to east prussia trends. like you i have many bad words to say about people waiting for the EU to invest and financialy to "liberate" the area. i read about such pro german attempts to reunite the pomeranias also. maybe i live far, but i am not blind. if anybody here is free of these ideas and truly seeks his tribal prussian culture, it should be agreed that at first everybody here should stick with non-regermanisation of the area. or else not only the prusa would be history but also the kashubian and all by whole will end like the lusatian! yes i would like to hope and to see one day a tribal baltic state emerging in east-prussia but i would like it to be made a home for this endemic population and not a re colonisation of the east by german investment. and further more, if it should be the interest of any nation of the region it should be polish-lithuanian co enterprise and not russian or german nor another EU project. if this would once come to birth i would support it and would try to help it. it also doesnt matter to me yet, as zeimiatians dont cry for independence if this area would become an ethnic autonomy held by poland and lithuania af first, only if such real ethnicity will arise and revive we would be allowed to speak further about independence. and independnce means first and above all. tribal common culture. and that is the bigest problem. also lithuania and latvija are diminishing in population. at the present rate the populations of the baltic states are heading into endangered species area. how many real new ethnic prussians will we find? if prusa should stand for anything today it should first stand on its own legs like judaism stood for two millenias without a country. but first as an living and existing culture. i strongly belive that the most of the tribes mentioned above still exist today, just strongly assimilated into polish and lithuanian and belarussian and latvian territories. and the key to their revival is by finding their mutual tribal heritage and reviving their ancient cultural roots 
forgotten god? |
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| ERYKAS | dziekuje za odpowiec about these drawings you mentioned and genetic memory. well yes, i always had special symphaty for ravens, wolves, large trees... but i had something even stranger, while child and even later, i like to draw at some mechanistic manner (without thinking - whatever comes out is just o.k. i just found the outcomes very interesting as modern art) soon i started to discover that i draw many weird faces, many of them had this trident/trizub mark on their foreheads. --------------- and to add to the above, for myself i hope that one day i shall come back and no matter what happens (i craved for it since long ago) and without any connection to this discussion, i always wanted to go and buy me a bit of land near the baltic near the forests and lakes. where it is not hot, to smell the special smell of the forest. (the trees here dont have this smell). to paint and merge there having a family and being with people who feel the same as me about these places. not letting any american "culture" and murderous materialism as seen on t.v. into my life again. |
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| Nērtiks | As Kętrzyński noticed, Mazur people was saying: We are not Poles, we are not Germans, we are Prussians. Of course, they was saying this words in mazurian polish, not in prussian. Lastly in "Gazeta Olsztyńska" was review with an old women from village under Olsztyn. She said, that she was first women in village, who married a Pole. So who were these people? They speak slavic-sund language, but they not think about themselfs as Poles. They were Prussians! Not geneticaly, but for sure culturaly, etnicaly. The power of beauty of Prussia turn the mazovian settlers to Prussians! Also today, after genocide and moving out Prussians to Germany new Polish settlers are finding their way. They look for "Warmianness", "Mazurness". Our goal is to tell them, what Mazur peaople, Warmian people think about theirselfs, that to be lokal patriot means to be Prussian! It's hard task, because of years of nationalist propaganda, which tells that this land was always polish, and prussian means german. Lastly I bought a book with Mazurian and Warmian folk songs from 1966. Introduction of this book is full of polish chauvinism, tell about autochtones, who always miss the Piast kings. In the same time the autochtones, who officialy were 100% polish didn't have easy life. Prussians who survive the war was all the time accused of sabotage, whenever was a fire in a factory (My uncles friend's father had always such a problems, were arrested after ever fire in wood-industry factory). In such a way lot of them were make to leave their land in 70 years after "joining families action". So we shoud be wary about germanisation, but also wary to be about talking against germans. Lot of them are etnic Prussians, who learn german after deportation. Some of they are old people, who just want to see their childhood house before death. They born here, they love this land. Root of prussian culture was and always will be baltic, but we should remember about peoples from different cultures who were enriching it for ages. Here is a place to live for everyone who love this land. Remember about process which make mazovian settlers Prussians. The same process tell now people to find their identity, and will make them Prussians in future. I'm not fanatic neofit - I know about my slavic ancestors, my first language is polish and it will be always in my hart. But it was Baltic Land that feed me. Spirits of slavic ancestors lead me on the baltic way. Like spirits of German or Holland ancestors lead other people of former Prussia on Baltic way. I know about danger of regermanization, but I also know that the bigest injury in etnic structure made agressive slavization after IIWW. If You want to learn prussian, actuall dictionary is under adress: http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/Polsk.pdf I worked out grammatics in polish, You will find it here: http://prusa.strefa.pl/nertiks/papaausai/bilaa_pliki/pooliskas.html |
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| Glabbis | When i was wondering along the streets of Alnāsteini, i watched people, as i wanted to understand better who are these so called "polish" people. First i just saw people's faces and watched their gestures, manners, style of wear. What funny i can say. First of all, i saw that the general people's "cultural" attitude to Land is the same as in Kunnegsgarbs. I mean that beer bottles and other rubbish lie about everywhere in the corners, swim along Alnā river, and even in the castle's well. People were pissing in the streets like in Russia and in India. Everywhere these stupid "grafiti" inscribtions on walls. Then i was shocked with the amount of bald-headed people dressed in sportswear. This is a very exact factor showing present day state of a nation - its "cultural" aspect. Walking down the streets, first i didn't understand why people looked at me with such a strange look. Then i' ve understood that perhaps they didn't like my pullover with ethnographical swaskika. Then i spontaneously talked with unfamiliar people in streets. I had impression that people were frightened just with anything, like they are often beaten. Very strange. I sat on the bench by Stary Ratusz, and suddenly some old woman appeared and sat together with me and started talking. Somehow from the beginning she asked me about Vilnius as she was assured that i was from Vilnius. She says with the great nostalgic feeling: - how is in Wilno now there? I was not there for so many many years as i was born there and moved here after the war. All my dear ancestors at Rasos cemetery there. How i loved Wilno. How it looks now? Has it changed so much now? I told her about Vilnius and then i say: - actually i am not from Vilnius. Then she asked: - where am i from. I say: -from Królewiec. Then she says with great amazement: - O, Królewiec, it is a great city!, and so on... After some time we sat silently and i saw that she tried to remember something. Then she asked: - but what people now live in Królewiec - poles, lithuanians or germans? So i tried to joke a little bit and say: - now prūsai, Baltic Prussians live there. - do they indeed call this city "Królewiec"? It seems i've heard about some other modern name but i forgot what. - perhaps, you've heard about Kaliningrad? - o, tak. So already i think in my head what i would say to her further about this Baltic Prussian "kaliningrad" but suddenly her daughter appeared and she was about 40. This old woman say: - daughter, look this pan is from Królewiec and he can tell us more about Wilno and Królewiec. But her daughter even didn't look at me and says nervously: - mother, go, we need go shoping... So i saw: mother and daughter. I saw mother's appearance and daughter's. Mother has very "right" Baltic features but her daughter doesn't have. Daughter's face had these features of "polish" type. So then i went again and asked people about nationality and now i understood better what it is this "polish" type. It is Baltic type as well but it is very very very "spoilt". So it is connected not only about language and culture, as i wrote before, that "slavic" languages derived from West Baltic dialects. Now i saw with my eyes that the same situation with people. |
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| Glabbis | here is some humor for you: "fanatic neofit" sounds better than "my first language is polish and it will be always in my hart " The last is so terrible! We need to think together how to help you! |
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| ERYKAS | about shaved heads with sportive clothing. i guess it is the street fashion here also. i guess fattening people who enjoy spending time in western style fast food restaurants, consuming "better" products, seeing more hollywood movies where swastikas and pagan culture are portrayed as black occultism and neo nazism, are just brain washing themselves passively, and unconsiouscly becoming westernized. becoming "normal" members of the western family of white nations. i see this happening here also, people with shaved heads prefer it as when their foreheads start with the bolding process, the head shaving makes them believe they look better, younger. this is just another aspect of the american fitness hype. from talking on the net with poles and with visitors i have the strong notion that this process is very similar to all relatively closed ethnic socieities have to fight with unless they willingly prefer to be americanised. the new religion would soon transfer if not yet into sick materialism and more antagonism would appear among the poor old way elders and the western inspired youth. i guess that somehow krulewiec is still an isolated island. i guess that its relative isolation and russian policy makes it such, but these social problems would appear there as it would be openned to the western flush of sweet money. i may only add, that this is a cycle, the elders you described will pass away with their heritage and memoirs, the young generation would be quite different with its attitude and tolerance to romantics like you described yourself. would money win the heart in the end? i dont know. but i guess as the preassure toward westernisation would become stronger, only then we shall meet another young generation which will miss the old ways, the endemic culture and will seek how to revive it on historcial and cultural basis. we have much older culture than any of the wealth worshippers, whoever they are. but it all would be lost if romanticists would start a blind fight while in minority against the common notions and the reigning media. as more militant one would be, the more demonised infront of the majority he would be presented. i think we made a long way from the topic i openned here, i agree such matters should be more in discussion here and not only in the prussian language as it is still only in the use of you hardcore guys i hope one day i would be able to take part in prussian. i have to admit that i am also sorry that sometimes i do restrain myself from speaking louder against things i dislike. but a public forum, even a prussian one might be too public. |
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| ERYKAS | first of all i am very glad i found your community mainly by mistake, something which took me off the road i was in my research. i had my suspections about the possibility that my quest would lead me into deeper common times. and frankly, i dont really know i you think that i am serious or my first posts were just some neophite rubish. because of a reason in which i prefer to keep my public profile sane as possible i cannot shoot all what i have to shoot, i guess my words would be read by others like me, and it might look quite mad, that some excentric genealogist bumped on something like that. i know my conclussions are not academic, and that i am not part of any academy but of my own school of thought. (on my flesh i know, i would never be accepted to any club which seeks pure ethnicity nor has tolerance for cultural mixtures, exotic as mine.) sometime i do feel like the boy who yells that the king is naked. and where i live people already got used to dismiss people like me. i am a strict autodidact, i speak 5 languages, including hebrew. understand about 5-6 more. all my knowledge was never aquired at school, as my fate brought me not to an easy path in life. the history i know, is not and was not taught at any schools. not here and not there and not anywhere. i know that i am quite isolated culturaly and i do feel as one. i do know that some thing i said and would say may sound intriguing and even provocative to some of you and others. i know that i might be dismissed, but at least somewhere inside me i know that many things led me to this moment. some of them are not in the realms of the insane normal scientific thinking. i guess i dont need honour, surely not of virtual forum members, wherever it comes to ethnic and xenophobic matters i know i step on eggs. i will point also that i am not some esoteric family origin seeker like many others are. i do know my roots, i dont look to find a prize of some noble ancestry in the past and to wave it, as like some neo-genealogist do. i know about my specific family`s branch nobility. what i went into was more for the sake of my own curiosity, and for the sake of others having in common the same family name. i really dont even know how all these branches connect geneticaly nor in tree branches. (i guess it would be a great material to continue with) but as i learned from childhood, some people with better economical positions would dismiss or even try to kill my ideas and better as smaller they are. i am not going to talk about my family which i guess would raise a brow to the tribal connections i relate to them. some of them might even not be a genetical part of this family and just taken their name from possesions and would ever feel anything with the heritage i talk about. some others would prefer not to know or totally not to agree with that. and that`s o.k. with me. and if in the future some of it would be proven as truth, even if i myself dont fit into this theory, i assure you that a big part of them does. (i can only say i was lucky enough to remember the stories i heared as child and had good memory to use these stories later.) it would be very hard to connect and make it sound historicaly, as i know that there is a problem of archived documentation and as we are talking about times which precede at some point polish and lithuanian history and dealing much with legendary times i atleast hope that romanticists among you would find it interesting to regard as thinkable. or at least itnriguing enough to ignite your imagination as it did to mine. i believe that my next postings may have a drastic effect on some of you. but, we are lucky enough to live in days in which a genetical proof may be found if sought. and i believe would be the final and soundest of proofs. |
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| Glabbis | Isolation could help us from any western impacts. But as i already told, "normal" people want to live having a job and so on. THIS IS THE MAIN PROBLEM though our people try to avoid this problem and not to talk about it at all. Some man hope that he can combine two different reality in himself - to live in real Poland and work in Polish university and in spare seconds of this strange life - to do something for Prūsa. It is a big mistake from the very beginning. If once we don’t have this ISOLATION, our work on reviving our culture will be lost. We should not fight Mainstream Stupidity of the world. We should strengthen our ISOLATION from outer rubbish because we have no forces to annihilate it. From your words about languages, it would be not hard to you to study Prussian. So what are your plans about Prussian? Do you know any Baltic language? |
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| Nērtiks | I wrote about naturalness of staying balt living here. It's natural but slow process - every nesxt generation is more baltic, if it's able to articulate hard questions (of course I'm not talking about these bald heads). I'm consiously walk the baltic way, but I'm just consious that my nature evolves and cannot be changed quickly. I just trust in natural processes. Not in revolutions. You know, how sometimes lack money disturb some of us, disturbs our goal. We fith on their territory, so we have to fight by their rules. Money is powerfull tool. It's only important to know what is a goal, and what is a tool. Well ERYKAS, we wait for those shocking proofs. But I don't think that genetic roots are the mainest. The mainest are way of spirit. |
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| Glabbis | "They speak slavic-sund language, but they not think about themselfs as Poles. They were Prussians! Not geneticaly, but for sure culturaly, etnicaly. The power of beauty of Prussia turn the mazovian settlers to Prussians!" Well, it's rather romantic to say that the power of beauty of Prussia turned the mazovian settlers to Prussians. As i know, nobody can't say anything definite about Mazur People now. Who exactly they were. What was their origin. I've heard about different hypotheses. How did you know that they were Prussians not geneticaly, but just culturaly? Did you check their genes? I am sure that there are still lots of shit that lodged in our heads just because we were born in this position of increadibly stupid, idiotic, total Lie about everything. Take for instance today's Byelorussians. Now every official "scientist" would say to you that they are "slavs". This is the perfect example how big Baltic nations became "slavic" having no any migrations at all. They have lost their cultural Baltic identity just because of new popular international religion and trade relations, of course. I say once again: people want to live in comfort and earn money. Even the most wonderful great man could sell his own spirit just because of better life conditions. So i would not jump to conclusions saying anything about "slavs". The same thing with Pomeranians, Kashubians. Another unclear things are our kuršai and lietuvininkai (Prussian Lithuanians). Now official historian would say to you that these "lithuanians" came to Prūsa only in 16th century from Lietuva. Of course, some families could come, or come back again after some time. But i don't think that the main part of these "prussian lithuanians" came from somewhere. I am sure these were autochthons plus some Baltic migrants - some Sudawians or some other Balts who were minority anyway. As i've uderstood a word "Lithuanian" became just a synonym of the word "Balt" in 16th century. When they said "lithuanian" they just meant "of Baltic origin" and nothing more because Germans didn't care about all these local Baltic tribes and differences between them. They had three-language reality (Prussian-Lithuanian-German) in 15th century here in territory of nowdays Oblast and it is a great, strange mistery why Lithuanian language managed to live here till 1945 while Prussian already was not spoken till 20 century (at least it is official today's version, nobody know what could be really), though many Prussian words came to local dialect of German and they were anyway spoken. Then take this situation with kuršai who lived here in Semba and Skalva and some of them still live now. Now scientists say that these are not those kuršai who was called historically "kuršai". They say that they are just migrants from Latvia of 16th century. Of course, this is a stupid nonsence. Many ethnic components are in today's Latvia, one of them Kuršai who settled along the Baltic shore. Everybody knows about it but nobody would tell about them like about real kuršai. It is so funny and so stupid. Yes, our kuršai very clearly distinguish themselves from Germans as well. Of course, they lived before WWII in this ostpressen and they were the part of it. But when we asked one such old man about his identity and Germans, he very strictly answered: "if anybody would tell me that i am a German, i would strike him a slap in the face". "I'm consiously walk the baltic way, but I'm just consious that my nature evolves and cannot be changed quickly. I just trust in natural processes. Not in revolutions" - Yes, it is great that you walk this way. It seems, i still didn't say anything about revolutions. Of course, natural process is more reliable. Though it would be perfect to gather Prussian army and to force cities and villages! And then would start new life here. It would be possible if people would not fear to lose their jobs. Anyway, soon the nature will solve this problem. We don't need to spend our forces for war, soon all this will be done by powers of nature. |
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| Nērtiks | Nērtike, you wrote about Mazur people:
It was rather the beautifull metaphore. In fact evolution in the same conditions make them more baltic in genes and the culture - when one's live is strictly related to Nature, kulture is a part of surviving strategy and also evolves. I'm very romantic in goals, but try to be realy realistic in percepting the reality. Well, for sure Mazur people didn't find their prussianess from level zero - that would be realy romantic and unrealistic vision. Prussians was ones of the ancestors of Mazurians, and their dole in Mazurian culture was very important. But of course ones of the ancestors was Mazovians - Mazur peoples start to talk some version of polish, why Prussians was to do it? Simmilary in north Prussia, lithuanians realy must have settle there, lithuanian language tell us that. So concluding - there are imigration from Mazovia to Prussia. New settlers give Mazurians their language, but Mazurians was seeing their culture as continued prussian culture - they accepted local culture, but start to develop it further in polish-like language. |
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| ERYKAS | it would be interesting to read your and also, some of the silent member`s of this forum opinion what do they call prussian or of ancient prussian origin. and ofcourse i am interested in your standart opinion about Prusa-Brusa-Borusci connection. is there any connection? or the inscription inside your logo is just a fruit of my imagination and it has merely coincidential symbolic relevance. another question which has arisen following your discussion, is, does neo-ancient-prussians prefer not to see "masovian" ethnic or genetic (whatever it is) and other not clearly "prussian" presence in the regions which historicaly (it really depends what part of history and written by who we read) prusai/baltic regions. i ask these questions. because i am really curious to know what people here think (this includes the silent until now, one`s). |
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| Nērtiks | another question which has arisen following your discussion,
Why do You call us neo-ancient? For me Tradition is very important, but I treat it as a powerfull tool for creation, invention, new life, going to future. I'm not scared of science, technology, and signs of power of human mind. The clue is how to use it cleverly. Yes, maybe some people think, why to create anything, why to change, why to try, why to build - ages ago life was so easy and good (what is of course idealized picture, not true). But it is just a fear. The german and slavic elements are part of our culture, are beautifull and important, but only considered as part of main, root culture - baltic. |
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| ERYKAS | Nērtiks
well, that is exactly the problem. this forum and all you people here are comitted to prusa culture, language, and ethnicity. everybody from his point of geographical standing has his opinion mingled with slight etnocentrism. what exactly is the root culture? thats nice to say words like baltic, slavic and german... but what is behind it? did i say that in a relatively close part of the regions past it was not germanly influenced? does the germanisation of the region make it the essence? oh and what about slavic? do you mean the slavic mazovians who invited the teutonic order as the major influence? or the mazurians? i think you have forgotten the estonian and viking influence and occupation of the region prior to the 10th century. why wont we make the prusa roots - baltic estonic and viking? after all they were before the germans and the so called slavic... it seems like one tries to catch the moon`s reflection in the water. what is ancient really? does ancient begins in the 12th century or does is in the 8-9th centuries? maybe the vikings of truzo and and the estonians who came there with their influence should recognise them selves as prusai. stopping this nonsense germano-slavic. dont you learn from history? especialy in the regions where local tribal clashes weakened the sum and made space to invaders to come and to dwell as occupiers. so mazovians, mazurians, aesti, germans, curonians, zeimiatai, saxons, oblast citizens, kashebians, polescuks of belorussia, russians etc etc- apply to this place as borussia? isnt this rewriting history for the sake of own etnocentric purposes? i asked a simple question about the origins of ancient prussia. all i got in responce is two slightly opposite ethnicly answers, one sounds pro-german the second pro-polish and both meet in the baltic tabu. Nertike, you speak about genetic dogmas also and from the other side you fail or prefer not to see how modern genetics contradicts linguistics especialy in this region. how comes that in the ancient prussian dictionary still many western slavic words exist and yet earlier indo-aryan influences are so visible, and i still see the heavy finno-baltic influence on the dialect. finns and estonians are geneticaly and linguisticaly different. even their cultural heritage is different an yet they leave their traces on this revived dialect. all i asked was related to the ancient (ancient as the swastika and the jews are, not ancient as conrad, kettler and sambor) i asked about the same elements which make the celts and cymru - irish and welsh. i asked about the essence, the word, the name you carry as a pure tabu. it seems that nobody really shows interest in it here. it seems that historicaly some voices like to talk about genocide (the first genocide, the second genocide, etc) just like in some form of neo-prussina zionism, which makes the sum of genocides into a new ethnicity. (what about the pre-first genocide? we dont talk about that one because it was succesful i guess, maybe you believe nobody was left to tell or to blame and rebuild some forgotten archaic nationality). if you want to talk about native origins and regard this matter as as sacredly rooted, i think you should start do it and not throwing etno-political-military campains of the last millenia. come on, really, tell a kashubian that he is a polak. tell a welsh he is a celt, they will stand agaisnt you. so why do you mingle baltic with finnic and esti? (some of my best friend were finns) but baltic? what is this baltic? the meaning of balt? it is not something from the last millenia. and you cannot put an imaginary line beetwen pomeranian balts and lithuanian balts and to draw there a pseudo esti-gothic-lith-german nationality and call it ancient prussian. because it is simply not the truth. and as far as you will dig the oblast and masuria you will only find remains of people who used the word balt for thousands of years. balt in the aryan meaning. nertike. if the genetic memory indeed exists. this means that the pre first genocide wasnt so succesful after all. and these genes and ethnicity survived despite germanisation, lithuanisation, and polonisation. the top branches of the tree will ever remained connected to the tree`s roots until not totaly chopped off. |
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